Conscription

[Malaphax]

I was thinking about this recently, and maybe I'm way off base here but conscription isn't that bad. I use the word conscription but I really mean mandatory service. Currently there are plenty of countries that have some form of conscription including non-military ones (greece has done this before). Also I refer to unisex forms of conscription, not male only.

 

I have multiple reasons why I think it's a good idea. The idea of giving people some time between high school and college to do something useful and possibly open their mind to new possibilities is a good idea. Not to mention this would give more individuals a greater respect for the military and even non-military positions. Also these volunteers would be given work experience in some form. No longer would high school graduates submit relatively blank resumes. It would provide some measure of rigidity and structure to your life (other than mandated education). The volunteer positions would not only help cut down the cost of certain governmental agencies, but they could also help promote additional volunteering, other than what might be mandated.

 

Like I said, I may be way off thinking about this, but I personally see it as a good idea. I don't expect it to ever happen but I would like to hear some other opinions and arguments about it.

[Jedi2155]

I've always supported it, but I don't think it makes sense in the US.

[kuhla]

I think an absolute deal-breaker is what is a) the punishment for refusing to do any kind of service or doing it very poorly be it military/non-military and b ) how long.

 

a) If the punishment is too harsh you will get public backlash. If the punishment is too light no one will take it seriously.

 

b ) I think any longer than 2 years would be totally unreasonable. You said between high school and college so that would mean someone would come out of conscription at (using my number) 20 with still no higher education and no career path. You don't want people to start too-late on the rest of their lives.

 

wiki link to countries that have conscription + details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription#...by_jurisdiction

 

On a slightly tangential note, you cite greater respect for the military as a plus. I don't. The military gets more than enough respect in this country.

[Malaphax]

I would think the punishment should be commensurate with the crime, so people who refuse the community service should either be forced to take part in a form of community service (possibly a rather unappealing one like trash pickup etc...), also if constantly shirked their might be a very heavy fine or even additional public service requirements. One other suggestion could be to make the completion of public service a public and searchable criteria, allowing employers to check weather or not you've completed it, or if you've decided against it.

 

As far as length of time, I would actually recommend 1 year, maybe 18 months at the very extreme. 2 years might be too much. The idea is it gives you a bit of time and experience before you have to make your college decisions (like major etc...) This also gives plenty of time for training, and then useful work to take place, rather than people going through merely training and not being useful, or on the other side, becoming too attached to the position.

[kuhla]

One other suggestion could be to make the completion of public service a public and searchable criteria, allowing employers to check weather or not you've completed it, or if you've decided against it.

I actually had more points but I decided against posting them. I would like to hear your answer to this point though: Why should an employer care? What difference does it make to them whether you completed your federal service or not? You can't make the conclusion that the person who did complete their service is more qualified than someone who didn't. You talked about being able to show work experience but if everyone has to do it, and it is enforced, then even the most unmotivated/unqualified will have it on their resumes too. They were forced to do it just like everyone else.

[Malaphax]

Much like a background/credit check is required for various employment, higher level employment could require that the service be completed. As far as resume, you could see what the supervisor for the position you worked for said about them. It would function more as a formal reference than as work experience, but would technically fulfill both.

 

As far as why employers would care, ask employers why they care about your credit score or what comes up on your background check.

[Jedi2155]

I believe the Employer has a very good reason to check their military background and to care whether or not they completed the "mandatory" service. I would compare it on the same level as having a High School Education which everyone "should" have but does not. It speaks something about the person. It describes the person in more ways than one.

 

The real problem you're bringing up about why Employers care is a question of metrics and which metrics are actually important and which are not. The same principle can be applied to people who wear lots of piercings and tatoos but want to work at place like IBM. An IBM interviewer would probably not hire them on the basis of their physical appearance even if it is against the law, but given all other things equal they probably would hire the straight cut guy. Its a differentiable attribute. I can go on at length about this but I think the case would've been pretty clear.

[kuhla]

I believe the Employer has a very good reason to check their military background and to care whether or not they completed the "mandatory" service. I would compare it on the same level as having a High School Education which everyone "should" have but does not. It speaks something about the person. It describes the person in more ways than one.

You cannot compare a high school education to mandatory service. One is education the other is closer to an occupation.

 

The real problem you're bringing up about why Employers care is a question of metrics and which metrics are actually important and which are not. The same principle can be applied to people who wear lots of piercings and tatoos but want to work at place like IBM. An IBM interviewer would probably not hire them on the basis of their physical appearance even if it is against the law, but given all other things equal they probably would hire the straight cut guy. Its a differentiable attribute. I can go on at length about this but I think the case would've been pretty clear.

Going along on that analogy, both the guy with tatoos+piercings and the "clean" guy both did their mandatory service. It does not help to differentiate them. It's a totally useless metric.

[Malaphax]

As far as resume, you could see what the supervisor for the position you worked for said about them. It would function more as a formal reference than as work experience, but would technically fulfill both.

[kuhla]

As far as resume, you could see what the supervisor for the position you worked for said about them. It would function more as a formal reference than as work experience, but would technically fulfill both.

That would mean your supervisors have ridiculous leverage/power over you. What if your supervisor is a dick and out of no fault of your own does not write you a good reference? You have to drag that reference around for the rest of your life akin to having a criminal record that you have to divulge to every employer down the line.

[Malaphax]

How is that different from other jobs. Also you assumed the referance would be searchable, which is not what I said. I am suggesting that when you apply for a job and they ask you for references that you could choose to use your supervisor as a formal referance, instead of leaving that category blank.

 

I am not suggesting that employers would use this conscription as the only factor for hiring, but it would certinly be part of your background check and go to your character. Also keep in mind this would probably only affect your first job, once you have work experience it would barely find it's way on to a bulletpoint on your resume.

[Jedi2155]

You cannot compare a high school education to mandatory service. One is education the other is closer to an occupation.

Why not? Both are mandatory. Whats the difference between compulsory education and an occupation? You barely get paid in the military.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_ed...n#United_States

 

Going along on that analogy, both the guy with tatoos+piercings and the "clean" guy both did their mandatory service. It does not help to differentiate them. It's a totally useless metric.

You missed my point entirely in my analogy. I was merely stating the choices of mandatory service (one who went to serve the actual military versus a heavy fine). Of course it differentiates them. I was using the tatoo analogy as how employers may view a person on details other than how their resume is.

 

How is that different from other jobs. Also you assumed the reference would be searchable, which is not what I said. I am suggesting that when you apply for a job and they ask you for references that you could choose to use your supervisor as a formal reference, instead of leaving that category blank.

This is completely true. I'm not even sure if my employer even checked my references very much....if any of them. Short of handing them a signed referral, I don't know how far employers check references for most jobs. Obviously a different story in Government/Security/Defense.

 

I am not suggesting that employers would use this conscription as the only factor for hiring, but it would certinly be part of your background check and go to your character. Also keep in mind this would probably only affect your first job, once you have work experience it would barely find it's way on to a bulletpoint on your resume.

Also true, I barely had one line saying recommendations are available upon request on my resume.

[Turvy]

I was thinking about this recently, and maybe I'm way off base here but conscription isn't that bad.

[...]

I've been meaning to respond to this. In summary: I agree.

 

If it was conscription, everyone would have it on their resume and it wouldn?t differentiate anyone. I agree that it is a good idea to have some time between high school and college in that most HS graduates don?t have an idea of what they want to do. Most follow the generic preset of ?things to do in life?: HS, College? then it?s a big blank as to how to apply their degree and what they want to do for the rest of their life. In addition, serving in the military instills some intangibles that people lack these days such as obedience, patience, and respect among other things. Another thing I?d like to point out is that if we run into a full scale war, we would want all of our enlisted men to have basic training so it?s not a ?crash course on the front lines? type of problem. In most cases, if you pit a group with better synergy and more training against a group of newbies who can?t follow directions, it?s pretty obvious who is going to win.

 

As for the severity of punishment for those who choose to opt out:

I know Singapore has a mandatory 2 year military service. All males must participate. If a guy tries to move out of the country to avoid military duty, he loses his citizenship. If he wants it back, he gets to do military service?plain and simple.

[kuhla]

I would like to resurrect this topic briefly to point out that many of you were in support of the idea of slotting something in-between high school and college per discussion on saturday.

[Malaphax]

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hr748

 

It could be coming around. Now I get to post something somewhat personal. Brace for impact.

 

I brought this up at the dinner table with my mom and stepdad. I said, it goes up to age 25. My stepdad then goes, well I guess you might end up going to prison (jehovah's witnesses are pacifists and will go to prison rather than participate in a draft or military conscription). I then replied I would far rather join the military than go to prison. I cited that the prison rape statistics alone are staggering, not to mention the violence I would be subjected to. My stepdad still seemed to think that prison was a much better alternative to the military. This is leaving aside the point that I'm certain any conscription would have a non-military option. I basically said the military is so much better than prison it was a laughable comparison. Even if I was treated very poorly in the military my chances of being raped would be far lower, not to mention I believe the military is relatively orderly.

 

Also to give some balance to the argument, my mother told me that the draft was the reason why I have a British passport. I pointed out that if i left the country to dodge the draft, I would almost certainly lose my american citizenship permanently, and that even if I was successful there are extradition treaties with Britain I suggested while that was less extreme than going to prison it was still a very extreme decision. She also would not answer my question of: Would you rather I go to prison than join the military? I think that spoke volumes.

 

I'm not going to ask you guys to go way off topic, but I will ask you this: Do you really think that a mandatory military service (read: draft) would be so terrible that you would rather go to prison?

 

I'll put my opinion on this in spoiler text.

 

 

I think my stepdad is so full of shit, it was appalling. I understand that his brother was drafted during Vietnam and that the military during that time was pretty bad. I still think his views are not only extreme, they are flat out stupid. To suggest the prison system is a better place than the military is so far removed from reality that I cannot accept his opinion as even remotely valid. I also understand that while he has his spiritual belief system, his particular argument is so poorly thought out it's incredible.

 

 

 

 

[Turvy]

I am not against a draft. When duty calls, we must answer. I'm sure I won't be happy about it but I would still abide by the law. Albeit I speak as if I am of that age. I do not want to go to jail. Too many horror stories that I don't want to add to, thank you very much.

[ren]

depends on the war

[Jedi2155]

I would rather sign up than be conscripted, but that's my personal POV. Even if it was the Vietnam war.