Combat Sports / Martial Arts

[kuhla]

Disclaimer: Anything related to MMA, especially related to the UFC and its affiliates, has to go through an anti-bro filter before being posted in this thread or I will remove it. Just one, easy example of what I mean: whining that a fight is boring because it isn't "brutal", doesn't end with a tko or the other guy was just "running away". Comments like that make me rage. The kinds of people who whine like that are not appreciating what they are watching, a sport. It's not a bar fight. I think that attitude is so endemic of the UFC crowd that I hesitate to talk with some people about MMA/martial arts because I'm afraid of the possible association/category they paint me in. Sadly, for many people, UFC is all they know about martial arts.


So what goes in this thread: Videos, discussion, pictures, significant news related to western martial arts (boxing, greco wrestling, etc.), eastern martial arts (muay thai, judo, karate, etc.) and mixed martial arts. In regards to videos, highlight videos are fine, sometimes, but don't get carried away with it because anyone/anything can look good with a highlight video.


My interest in the topic as a whole has grown rather significantly over the past year, although I had some minor interest in it even before that, so I've decided to finally make a thread about it.


Ok, let's kick this off with some muay thai video because I find striking arts to be the more exciting kind and muay thai has the most striking tools out there (punches, kicks, knees, elbows). Although technically it can be called kickboxing, K-1 kickboxing doesn't allow elbows and has strict rules on the use of knees. One note about muay thai, it generally speeds up as the rounds go by because they start slower (intentionally).

Buakaw is a pretty famous name.



More Buakaw in this one. More kicking too. In the first video, start at 4:48.




Alistair Overeem, one of the few fighters that I would acknowledge I'm biased towards, vs Fabricio Werdum. Maximum lulz because Overeem wants to go 100% standup and Werdum 100% wants to grapple.





*waits for chris to pick up her end and post some judo/grappling videos*

[Turvy]

Chris at work seeing blanks for what is probably youtube vids. Will post later after Chris gets home.

 

(back to 1st person)

 

Definitely a thread I'd keep up with. I am 95% sure that if I posted a taichi 24-form vid here most of you would stop watching the 10minute vid at the 2 minute mark. It's really boring to watch but if you ever get a chance to do taichi, I definitely recommend it. You train flexibility, balance, and develop a bit of core strength.

 

vids to accompany my blabbering to be posted...

 

Quick edit: If you're in for a documentary, I think youtube had something about Kimura. It's a black and white film. I really liked it. The judo push up part looked really grueling though. yesh.

[kuhla]

Which kind of tai chi?

 

This kind?

 

...or this kind?

 

.......or the best kind? http://youtu.be/0W1ym3yggR4

[Turvy]

@kuhla,

 

I was referring to the first one. Second one looks like taichi/wushu. third one is just... crap.

 

Kimura:

 

good stuff:

 

For a throw, a clean throw (ippon) is when you get the opponent to land flat on his back. If he hits one side or it doesn't look clean, it's wazari (half point) or sometimes if it looks just horrible-- yoko (you can have a lot of these... at the end if no one gets an ippon or wazari they add up the yokos).

 

Some clean uchi mata:

 

1:34 looks really REALLY dangerous-- I don't think they'd teach that in most dojos for fear of people doing it wrong and dislocating someone's arm at the elbow joint. I can see it happening... eeeww

Very legit vid. Great techniques.

 

I actually like watching this guy. He had some good stuff and it makes sense. I like the comment on bottom best tho (lol).

 

 

I would do it the F.E.A.R way

 

F: fuck

 

E: everything

 

A: and

 

R: run

okay last one...

 

 

I like Aikido too-- I think the basis for most martial arts is balance. Aikido in comparison to judo is more locks (wrist, elbows... etc) and throws as well. Lots of fun.

[kuhla]

I actually like watching this guy. He had some good stuff and it makes sense. I like the comment on bottom best tho (lol).

 

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/79FT8bpL2pc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

okay last one...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/3OuduuFHNcI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Ughhh. Please no more of these....martial arts "self defense." Too many abstractions, making to.... actually let me just post the discussion from last time because nothing has changed:

 

I'm curious what it is particularly you do not appreciate about most martial arts. If we get a good discussion going I may start a thread in serious discussion. I'm curious because I think you are coming at this from the perspective of self-defense (no rules) in which case I'm mostly on the same page as you, little to no practicality. However I mostly view martial arts nowadays as sports (for those that practice it as such) and I'm ok with it from that perspective.

Alright, what do you mean no practicality? There is always a little bit you can use in a fight. Albeit, in a real fight, people with little to no experience will just flail around. Seriously, in a real fight, I'd probably run first. If I get caught, then I'd flail around and hope something catches their eye, throat, or groin.

Huge parts of most martial arts just fly out the window when in a no rules situation. Who says they are going to flail? What if the other guy has a gun? You lose. A knife?... and you don't? Unless you are amazing you lose. A kick to the balls? Don't need much technique for that and it only needs to land once, you lose. Sucker punch? It's called a sucker punch for a reason. No padding on the floor. No padding on his fist. No mouth guard. You probably won't be wearing ideal clothing to move in. Also if a martial art relies on a gi (like judo), that aspect is lost. I could go on all day with scenarios like that. Too many holes.

 

The vast majority of martial arts train and compete inside a tight rule set. This isn't realistic. I'm not saying there is absolutely no application but there are so many issues that come up that I would consider "practical" application to be slim to none.

 

On a related note, I think I've mentioned this before, I would not consider a fair number of the martial art "practitioners" I've met over the years to be athletic but if you ask them, they are thoroughly convinced they can kick ass and take names (google, youtube, wiki mcdojo). I think this hurts the reputation of martial arts pretty badly. Technically martial arts is a very physically intensive activity. If it isn't then I'm seriously curious how effective it really is at anything at all including competing inside that specific art.

 

On another related note I don't actually like the name martial "arts". How is it an art? The martial aspect is a relic from a long gone age too. Combat or fighting sports I think would be a much more accurate term.

Also martial arts have very little practicality. The tradition and the "art" aspect have even less to deal with the actual use of the skills. I would claim that unless you are of some form of master level with a martial art, you have very little edge over an average individual, besides maybe your reaction being more calculated.

 

When someone is in a fight, you use whatever means necessary to win. I don't train to fight, nor do I like the idea of sparring because you must hold back significantly. It only helps you practice the basic technique or idea. It doesn't necessarily prepare you for some dude jumping you or multiple people cornering you in a dark alley.

 

 

I like Aikido too-- I think the basis for most martial arts is balance. Aikido in comparison to judo is more locks (wrist, elbows... etc) and throws as well. Lots of fun.

Not a fan of Aikido because it doesn't have any competitive organization or sparring.

 

Martial arts that do: kickboxing, boxing, muay thai, judo, karate (kyokushin, not shotokan), tae kwon do (ITF, WTF), brazilian jiu-jitsu, various wrestling forms, sambo, sanshou (which I would just consider MMA in its own right). That's most of the big ones.

[Turvy]

Sitting in bed. -_-" Getting random bouts of dizziness.

 

[kuhla]

Sitting in bed. -_-" Getting random bouts of dizziness.

 

http://www.youtube.com/embed/OLZSKhuFDnY

jackieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...... wan mo ting.....

 

Yeah, not too crazy about Wing Chun either (that's what he is doing with the wooden dummy right? or is it kung fu? I dunno).

 

 

I don't know how I'm supposed to take that level of abstraction seriously.

 

**secret italic agenda: While I do actually believe in what I've written above, I'm also trying to lure chris into my favorite debate about tradition vs modernity for the fun of it**

 

**small italic disclaimer: If someone enjoys practicing a martial art, that is reason enough to keep doing it, but if they try to compare it to other martial arts, or to make grand statements about its effectiveness, things get messy fast which and the crucible of competition and sparring must be brought up**

[kuhla]

Need some competition videos up in here to keep that part of the thread alive....

 

Giorgio Petrosyan is a pretty big name in K-1

[Turvy]

The thing is, most of these vids are "forms" practice ... drills if you will. In real combat, what you learn in martial arts schools may or may not be applied. Like you say, without real exposure, people who have trained for many years in a "light" environment often lapse into random punching/kicking--formless and usually not very effective.

 

I think you need to look at Wing Chun's history-- it was meant for women, children, and elderly who can't protect themselves using "power strikes" like punches/uppercuts/MT kicks... what not. The school of thought behind wing chun utilizes speed, precise strikes, and maneuvering of the opponent's balance. I'm not saying one who practices Wing Chun can defeat a Muay Thai fighter and I really don't know if they can't. Fights depends on more factors than just sheer power or technique. Mind set, location, match up (body weight, size, age) are all variances that sway the outcome. The video you linked was trapping hands drill -- it's to disable the opponent from using their arms or knocking it out to the sides. It may look ridiculous but it's actually really hard to do.

 

btw, I linked the Jackie Chan vid because I really liked the warm up drills and spar sequence.

[kuhla]

If someone claimed judo was an effective martial art against other martial arts, I would agree completely. There is sparring in judo which teaches how to work against a thinking, resisting opponent. There are numerous competitive organizations (IJF, Olympics, etc.) which encourages a high level of fitness and creativity. This sets the stage for a handful of MMA fighters who have practiced judo and employed some of the techniques to good effect against boxers, kickboxers, wrestlers, etc. Most recent example, last weekend, Ronda Rousey, a bronze medalist in judo at the 2008 Beijing Olympics, became the Strikeforce Women's Bantamweight Champion after doing some hip throws and eventually getting a cringeworthy armbar (WHY DID YOU NOT TAP OUT SOONER TATE YOU STUPID).

 

Much of this is not the case with wing chun, making me very suspicious of the claims of its effectiveness against any other martial art or form of attack.

 

btw, I linked the Jackie Chan vid because I really liked the warm up drills and spar sequence.

It would be motivating to have a roommate would get up at the same time as me and want to do some brief exercising together (strong no homo, unless a girl then strong hetero) before getting the day started.

[kuhla]

A very recent Buakaw video.

 

[Turvy]

Great vid. I really like Buakaw's kicks.

 

Anyways, I don't think it fair to go on a basis that one martial art is more useful than another. going back to wing chun-- they have takedowns and throws as well. Judo isn't all about takedowns, throws, or chokes/locks... The formal Judo kata has jiu-jitsu foundations so kicking, punching, open palm strikes are also taught. The human body only has so many limitations and combination possibilities-- therefore, all martial arts are similar in that respect. The only difference is probably style, and emphasis on a particular MA doctrine (ie. TKD focuses on kicks; judo on throws, etc).

[kuhla]

No, no, we are not talking about the available tools of a martial art but how they are practiced. My point is that active sparring and competition are absolutely essential, in my opinion, to making a martial art "effective." Judo has that. Wing Chun, from what I know, does not.

[Turvy]

I'm sure they have sparring matches within the school. I think you're looking at Judo as a competition tho. In regular dojos that do not compete we still have "Randori" which means free practice -- you utilize what you learn and test things out with various partners in the dojo.

 

Competition outside of schools are probably rare. In China I know they have people who challenge various schools and it's looked down upon. I lob it under different culture, different rules. Look up wing chun competitions, i'm sure they have some nowadays with Western influence.

 

Or you can just do jeet kun do (bruce lee's signature)-- I'm sure he amalgamated some wing chun into his over branching style.

[kuhla]

I think you're looking at Judo as a competition tho. In regular dojos that do not compete we still have "Randori" which means free practice -- you utilize what you learn and try to bring the other down.

*does some youtube searching*

 

Randori sure looks like sparring to me. Both individuals are resisting and trying to gain the upperhand within pre-agreed upon levels of intensity but certainly not within some strict form of "I'll do just like so and then you do just like so." Am I wrong? I'm obviously speaking from zero experience here about judo... just saying what I see...

 

Some videos I watched:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlA0Rz5XDLI

[Turvy]

You are right-- randori means free practice. Kohai's ask the senpai's for permission to train with them. That way they learn more and get to utilize what they learned that day. Of course, the higher belt holds back a little-- most of the time...

 

I'm sure all martial arts have this otherwise it's not a conducive environment.

 

Taichi, I know doesn't have this-- the basis is for health and personal conditioning. The only competitions I've seen for Taichi is scored based on "form"-- who can do the forms best. This is usually done using the 24-form drill-- the vid with the woman in the pink. The traditional full form is 108 but it's so long there is no way judges would want to watch competition where everyone does the whole thing. So they chopped it up to 24. There are different forms of taichi like taichi sword practice.-- wushu uses principles of Taichi. Aikido has similar principles such as Taichi (totally different styles and focus but similar in practice.) Again, the human body is limited in structure and range in motion-- all martial arts are fundamentally the same.

 

I only learned a little bit of aikido, but I wanted to learn that because my ukemi (rolling/landing) was horrid in judo and i kept getting whiplash. In aikido, the roll is much more controlled, relatively less impact, and more fluid whereas in judo you slap the ground when you land to dissipate the force. ( I have no clue where I am going with this.)

 

I really miss judo but I don't miss getting hurt.

[kuhla]

Saenchai is considered one of the best Muay Thai fighters, ever.

 

Here is a very recent fight of his at Lumpinee stadium (famous muay thai location).

 

 

He has some very creative strikes as this highlight video shows pretty well.

 

[Turvy]

1:57

[kuhla]

From what I know kyokushin practitioners are reputed to have iron bodies since most of the striking is to the body since you cannot strike the face with your hands/arms in any form.

[kuhla]

MMA Army Combative Tournament. man vs woman fight in the Final.

The army now allows women and men to compete in the tournament against each other. Women are allowed to weigh in 10 pounds over the weight limit..

the competetion starts off on day 1 with pure grappling than day 2 goes to grappling with open palm slaps and kicks. than the final day is the finals and the competetion is fought under mma rules. no elbows.

 

If you don't watch it, I don't blame you, it's pretty ugly. Also, don't ask me wtf the army has to do with mma, I have no idea. We going to fight the iranians with standing guillotines and flying knees?

[Malaphax]

From what little I know about military martial arts, I think there are 2 rather distinct schools of thought. The first is a traditional condensed martial arts that shows basic striking and grappling in case of a hand to hand engagement. The second school I've seen assumes you are armed and any engagement in hand to hand is merely an exercise in building enough space for you to use your firearm.

 

As far as females vs males, even with 10lbs you'd rarely see this. But why would you want to... On top of which you'd never see this at any weight class beyond 125lbs. There just aren't any females that can compete at the higher weight ranges.

 

Also I know this may set off the "bro alarm" but it's very hard for me to get super excited about fights when the competitors are at the lowest weight limits. It's one thing if there's plenty of striking but I always have a thought in the back of my mind, "this dude is 125lbs, and 5'4" why am I watching midgets wrestle" There's generally more striking and far more "action" but none of it seems to matter, I rarely see the lower weight classes throw a punch that causes a knockout or strike with enough force to look like it did some damage. But that's just my opinion as a spectator, I'm sure getting hit is still getting hit and there's at least some damage from those strikes, it still just seems like I'm watching little league.

[kuhla]

From what little I know about military martial arts, I think there are 2 rather distinct schools of thought. The first is a traditional condensed martial arts that shows basic striking and grappling in case of a hand to hand engagement. The second school I've seen assumes you are armed and any engagement in hand to hand is merely an exercise in building enough space for you to use your firearm.

Ehhhh. I'm not crazy about that definition. The only martial art I know of that involves firearms is Krav Maga. For the other kinds that involve weapons (but not firearms), most people don't consider them "martial arts". Yes technically any "practiced combat" is a martial art but do you consider it a martial art when you do archery? It technically falls under the definition.

As far as females vs males, even with 10lbs you'd rarely see this. But why would you want to... On top of which you'd never see this at any weight class beyond 125lbs. There just aren't any females that can compete at the higher weight ranges.

Yeah, that's something I've thought about too. Even if people wanted male vs. female competition it would HAVE to be limited to the low/lowest weight classes.

[Malaphax]

You have no idea how painful it is for me to link to deadliest warrior, but this is the only example I can find of what I was talking about:

 

 

I was mostly talking about the idea that you just get them off of you and then shoot them. I would consider this more of "practiced combat" not necessarily something that makes sense as a sport or useful without a weapon. But I do at least think that this form of technique is very useful for soldiers to be trained in. Very rarely will they be in a situation with no weapons.

 

I do not consider archery a martial art, I consider it a hobby/sport.

 

Also, as a side note, I do have a bit of respect for krav maga. In terms of defense it makes absolute sense, use anything to survive. I like that train of thought and I like how often their techniques are designed to kill/maim/disable far more than basic strikes or grapples. I also would be hesitant to call krav maga a martial art, because I don't think it's something that can be easily converted into a sport.

[kuhla]

I do not consider archery a martial art, I consider it a hobby/sport.

See, that's the point I'm trying to make. Under a technical definition, if you are going to take practicing with firearms/weapons under the martial arts wing then you have to take archery too. That's why I was not a fan of your definition. I don't consider archery a martial art either.

Also, as a side note, I do have a bit of respect for krav maga. In terms of defense it makes absolute sense, use anything to survive. I like that train of thought and I like how often their techniques are designed to kill/maim/disable far more than basic strikes or grapples. I also would be hesitant to call krav maga a martial art, because I don't think it's something that can be easily converted into a sport.

I have issues with Krav Maga. The stuff that you can practice in krav maga (basic striking, basic standup grappling) you would be better served in a more focused martial art or just mma type classes. The stuff that you can't practice in krav maga, and that everyone loves to bring up every time Krav Maga is mentioned, such as eye gouging, chocking, crushing testicles, groin kicks, etc. are stuff you can't fully practice. If you can't practice it on a resisting person then your ability to implement it is probably going to be really compromised. I'm also really iffy about the weapon aspect of it when they are talking about defending against someone with a knife or gun, the odds seem terribly high in favor of the armed person.

[kuhla]

Less than 24 hour old video of Petrosyan. I like watching him sometimes, his style, he doesn't brawl, he waits for opportunities.