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kuhla

Mass immigration into EU from the Middle East.

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I'm not even sure where to start on this topic. I feel like it's been a growing issue for a while, it's just now getting a lot of attention and will reach a breaking point in the not so distant future.

 

If you don't know what I'm talking about, here are some blurps from the latest article I've read related to this.

 

source - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germany-opens-its-gates-berlin-says-all-syrian-asylumseekers-are-welcome-to-remain-as-britain-is-urged-to-make-a-similar-statement-10470062.html

 

 

.....

 

New Syrian arrivals will no longer be forced to fill in questionnaires to determine which country they had first arrived in. In the first six months of 2015, Germany registered 44,417 applications from Syrian asylum-seekers.

.....

 

Germany, which expects to take a staggering 800,000 migrants this year

.....

 

The EU border agency, Frontex said this week that a record 107,000 migrants arrived at European land and sea borders last month. More than 20,000 people arrived in Greece alone.

 

Many migrants in Greece sought to travel onwards to Macedonia last week en route for northern Europe. Skopje closed its border for three days. Police used stun grenades and batons to keep refugees at bay before standing aside to let everyone enter.

 

The Italian coastguard rescued 4,400 migrants from 22 boats in the Mediterranean on Saturday – the highest daily figure in years. A detailed European Commission resettlement plan is expected next month. So far Britain has refused to take any of the asylum-seekers reaching southern and eastern Europe.

 

One subject under discussion was a possible distinction between refugees from areas hit by war and famine and “economic” migrants. EU governments would be allowed to refuse all migrants from, for example, Albania, Serbia and Kosovo but would be expected to deal sympathetically with Syrians, Iraqis and refugees from the Horn of Africa.

 

There are many many more news articles out there discussing this topic over the last few months.

 

There is already increased resentment towards immigrants across various northern European countries. Social services are already tight. Many of these people have no skills, no homes, nothing. Recent radicalization concerns both at home and abroad. It all seems like a powderkeg.

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It's one thing to have no skills/homes/nothing. Its another thing to have that and concerns for radical thinking and the danger that brings...

 

The parents might be sane but what about the children....or the family they left behind?

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The resentment is increasing dramatically. What's becoming more common is stuff like this:

An anti-immigration party with roots in the neo-Nazi movement has become Sweden's most popular political party, according to a YouGov poll published on Thursday.

“It’s a tremendous breakthrough for us,” Tommy Nilsson, party manager for southern Sweden, told the Telegraph. “There’s too much immigration and too many beggars from eastern Europe. People are starting to realise that this is a serious problem for Sweden.”

The populist group has seen its support surge since winning a record 12.9 per cent of the vote in last September’s general election – largely on the back of growing disquiet about the country’s generous asylum policies.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/sweden/11814498/Anti-immigrant-Sweden-Democrats-now-the-biggest-party-according-to-poll.html

 

With Germany expecting as many as 800,000 people fleeing war and poverty to arrive this year, street violence and arson attacks on empty asylum shelters are raising pressure on Merkel to find solutions and take a stand. After police guarding a refugee shelter were attacked by protesters for three consecutive nights, she condemned the outbreak of “anti-immigrant hatred” in the town of Heidenau near Dresden.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-08-24/merkel-blasts-anti-immigration-riots-in-eastern-germany

 

The blaze last Saturday was not the first attack on a refugee shelter in Germany but it shocked a nation that has received a surge of refugees in the last few years -- 200,000 in 2014 and a further 85,000 in the first quarter of 2015 alone.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/04/10/us-germany-immigration-idUSKBN0N11WP20150410

 

The issue is that none of these countries can properly cope with the vast number of immigrants flooding in from North Africa and the Middle East. It doesn't help that immigrant areas have higher crime rates and that many of these immigrants are outright refusing to integrate into the countries they're immigrating to. I'm not going to suggest that all immigration is bad, and in fact some controlled immigration would certainly help these countries, but how the hell is Greece or Spain or even France going to cope when they're own economies are struggling and now there's a line of immigrants claiming public assistance and competing for already scarce jobs. It's not a good position to be in. Worse yet, many of these counties (especially Sweden) are very tolerant and refuse to acknowledge some of the dramatic increases in crime (especially violent crime) that are occurring after these influxes of immigrants.

 

I'm not so concerned about radicalization, but more concerned when immigrants do not integrate into society. There has been serious issues in Britain with heavily muslim communities where young men act as thugs and try to police their own religious convictions as laws. While that's certainly on the extreme end, you also have local parents that are upset with the immigrant children flooding into schools and what affect that might have on their own children's education.

 

Honestly what will end up happening is either the creation of slums to segregate the immigrant population and appease the local residents. Or heavy policing of borders and a dramatic drop in the acceptance of asylum seekers. Neither is a pretty solution, but sadly there's no real way to accommodate entire countries being displaced.

 

Europe is finally experiencing some of the same issues that the Southern US has been experiencing for years decades. Funny enough these same countries used to read the news about our hawkish immigration policies being proposed and think it was barbaric.

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It's one thing to have no skills/homes/nothing. Its another thing to have that and concerns for radical thinking and the danger that brings... The parents might be sane but what about the children....or the family they left behind?

 

Human beings being human beings they are not blank slates. How much emotional/religious/cultural/etc. baggage are they bringing with them? The pure scale of the immigration makes it impossible to ignore.

 

[snip]

 

I've seen more than a few reports citing the increase membership in "anti-immigration" political parties. There have also been a lot of metrics cited of increased crime in immigrant heavy areas. I've probably seen all the same information and anecdotes about those "ghettos" that you have. It's ugly. I can't imagine a nice solution to any of this and it just looks like things are going to get worse.

 

I try to imagine a flowchart of possible consequences:

 

Huge numbers of immigrants move in and use social services

> leads to >

more strain on government

> leads to >

insufficient resources because these new immigrants are not paying into the system offsetting their cost

> leads to >

government cutbacks

> leads to >

resentment from citizens

> leads to >

immigrant heavy areas with limited social services turn into slums/ghettos/poverty heavy areas

> leads to >

crime increases even more

> leads to >

resentment grows even more from citizens

> leads to >

government crackdown to appease the voters, close borders? increased policing?

> leads to >

radicalized sentiment increases among immigrants

 

At this point you are already at a Europe that you don't recognize (compared to today).

 

I dunno. It's just the kind of flowchart I am imagining (not meant to be realistic).

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I do find it rather disheartening that so many displaced people feel the need to not just leave their country but their region as well to look for a place to set down roots. Unfortunately I do lay a good deal of blame on neighboring countries lack of response to this issue. I'm sure they're taking in a fair share of migrants as well, but it seems like if they were doing a better job dealing with refugees there would be less people flocking to Europe. It doesn't help that many European nations are contributing money to these Middle Eastern countries to help with the influx of migrants, only to face an ever increasing number of these same migrants; it almost comes across as double dipping.

 

Additionally I do find it rather disgusting that people who are not directly affected by the turmoil in the area are still trying to push their way in as migrants. It's one thing for a country to accept refugees from Syria or another war torn country it's quite another when you have people trying to get to Europe solely because of the better economic opportunities. It becomes much closer to what the US faces, and frankly it's much harder for residents of that country to accept. There's a reason why we have very hawkish attitudes towards immigration here in the US and it's not merely because of our more conservative leaning politics (as compared to Europe).

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Some data regarding the EU migrant problem:

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/mobile/index.php#Page?title=Asylum%20statistics&lg=en

 

Here's the part where it starts getting ugly:

Nearly four in every five (79 %) asylum seekers in the EU-28 in 2014 were aged less than 35 (see Table 3); those aged 18–34 accounted for slightly more than half (54 %) of the total number of applicants, while minors aged less than 18 accounted for one quarter (26 %).

These are not families being pushed out of war torn Syria. These are mostly young men looking for better economic opportunities. However the EU charter only require member states to take in refugees, which is why many politicians are calling them migrants, partially in the hopes of retaining control over who they let stay in their country.

 

It's also incredibly tough to try and defend some of the migrant actions when they're specifically looking to apply for asylum in northern European countries (like Germany). Hungary is getting absolutely slammed and most of the migrants there don't feel Hungary is somewhere they want to live... even after being given aid and help by the Hungarian citizenry.

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/09/04/the-arab-worlds-wealthiest-nations-are-doing-next-to-nothing-for-syrias-refugees/

 

I'm starting to get mad at this entire situation, and mostly because of the absurd media bias going on. I'm not going to directly link to the "saddening" images that were floating around the internet from this week. But I will once again point out that while there is a refugee crisis, people are neglecting the fact that the majority of these people are economic migrants and not truly refugees.

Very few immigrants crossing the Southern US border would claim they're refugees. Yet all of the migrants streaming into Europe are claiming to be refugees.

 

Also Germany has historically not accepted all applications for asylum. Right now they're close to a 40% acceptance rate. My bet is that hundreds of thousands of migrants will travel to Germany and end up stuck there after their asylum case is rejected.

20150905_woc966_0.png

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/09/daily-chart

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havent been following and pardon my ignorance. but where, and why these people are fleeing

and why to germany? conflicts ?

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They're mostly from the Middle East and Northern Africa. Many claim to be refugees from Syria, Eritria, Afghanistan and other war torn counties. Many claim to be fleeing war or persecution by others in their country of origin. All of them are looking for a better life in Northern Europe. Germany is being relatively open with it's borders and is offering these refugees a place to stay and possibly resettle.

Many of them made it to Hungary and tried to buy train tickets to Austria/Germany. Hungary closed to train station to anyone who didn't have EU citizenship, and will not allow them to leave. Hungary is also creating a barbed wire fence along most of it's border to dissuade migrants from coming. This has prompted some of them to start walking to Germany.

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thanks for the cliff notes. i dint read the whole thread.

 

sounds like a nightmare for merkel

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source - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/austria-to-close-borders-to-refugees-again-after-12000-arrive-from-hungary-in-just-48-hours-10488815.html

 

 

The Austrian chancellor has indicated that the country could begin closing its borders again after two days of unprecedented refugee arrivals from eastern Europe.

 

Werner Faymann said that emergency measures agreed by Austria and Germany to accept large numbers of refugees from Hungary should be lifted “gradually”.

Bavarian state officials have said that a total of 6,800 refugees entered Germany via Austria on Saturday, with another 5,000 expected on Sunday.

......

 

Almost 12,000 people in two days.

 

This is just a mess of a situation of an awe inspiring scale.

 

I'm starting to wonder how this will directly affect some of my family over there.

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i wonder how the citizens are feeling. open border really ? i can just walk in and out if im from neighboring country ?

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i wonder how the citizens are feeling.

 

It's mixed.

 

Some see it as as their humanitarian duty to help. Some see it as an invasion of opportunists that should be stopped.

 

Yesterday there was another "suspicious" fire at refugee housing. Most as guessing arson. Rumors are already running around of groups of young refugees causing trouble with locals near housing/camps.

 

open border really ? i can just walk in and out if im from neighboring country ?

 

It has been that way for a number of years now. They won't check any documents either.

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welp ok.... definition of open i guess its literally open huh.

 

i was thinking at least some sort of checking in and out some type of id's. something to at least track where the a person located.

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Denmark has ceased all trains running from Germany to Denmark.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/denmark-germany-train-traffic-halted-police-stop-migrants-33629180

 

Second translated article:

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fjyllands-posten.dk%2Findland%2Ftrafik%2FECE8006641%2FAl-togdrift-indstillet-mellem-Danmark-og-Tyskland%2F

 

This is where we start to see the split, some countries are going to start closing up their borders and others are going to open up and take in anyone. I expect some serious ugliness to come out of any EU parliament meetings and some tension between all the member states.

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source - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/munich-has-run-out-of-space-for-refugees-says-mayor-as-crisis-pushes-german-city-to-the-limit-10498760.html

 

 

Munich has said that it is at its "limit", after the refugee crisis has sent a huge influx of migrants into southern Germany.

After 13,000 people arrived on Saturday alone, the city’s mayor has pled with other regions to take their share of migrants. Munich is at “the upper limit” of its capacity, after the huge influx, according to the police.

Munich, in the south of Germany, has become the main entry point of refugees looking to enter Germany. The city has repeatedly warned that the huge number of people arriving there means that it will be unable to accommodate them.

.....

 

Munich is not far from one my aunts.

 

Based partially on what I've heard from family over there, we may be reaching the point where "the average" German is getting worried, picking sides.

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“We will not take part in the 160,000 asylum seekers that shall be distributed. We won’t do it because we have an opt-out [on EU Justice and Home Affairs, ed.] and because we are already taking in a great deal now,” Støjberg told Berlingske.

http://www.thelocal.dk/20150911/denmark-we-wont-take-any-of-the-160000-refugees

 

On Sunday evening at the West Bahnhof refugees and normal train passengers struggled to get to Germany after the German government announced it would introduce border controls immediately and that train service with Austria was suspended.

http://www.dw.com/en/confusion-at-austrian-train-station-as-germany-closes-border/a-18712323

 

BERLIN — Austria, Slovakia and the Netherlands introduced border controls on Monday, as Germany’s decision over the weekend to set up checks began to ripple across a bloc struggling to deal with the influx of migrants coming to the Continent.

 

In Hungary, the authorities said that a near-record 5,353 migrants had crossed into the country from Serbia before noon on Monday — even as Budapest continued to seal off that border with the construction of a 109-mile fence made with razor wire.

 

Around 50 police officers, wearing riot gear and equipped with pepper spray, converged Monday afternoon on the train tracks linking the villages of Roszke, Hungary and Horgos, Serbia, which thousands of migrants had used to cross in recent days. An official in a bright yellow jacket turned away migrants seeking to enter Hungary.

 

Starting Tuesday, Hungary will classify unauthorized entry into the country as a criminal offense, punishable by up to three years in prison. In response, Serbia said it would set up reception centers in the north of the country and pleaded for the European Union, of which it is not a member, to take action.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/15/world/europe/europe-migrants-germany.html?_r=1

 

I saw a few people posting that this won't be the worst influx, they believe that once many of these migrants are either settled or given status they will then apply to have their family brought in, under "family reunification."

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-372_en.htm

 

Once again, I feel like there are no winners in this situation. The migrants will not be happy with what they're given and the general citizenry of the EU will not be happy with the massive influx of migrants. This is a classic case of the lifeboat metaphor unfortunately no one has the power to stop the inevitable chaos this is going to cause.

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He would like to "help" and take in some migrants here in the US.

The reason why no one here is talking about it is because he's proposing a very modest number and it would be over a 2 year duration Any migrants would be screened before they're ever allows on US soil. My bet is that the screening process will remove a large portion of "unwanted" applicants from the pool.

 

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-09-16/white-house-refugee-plan-overwhelmed-by-syrian-exodus

 

Also he doesn't have the political power to push for any large programs or even moderate changes in border control. There's a real reason why he cannot provide anything close to amnesty for the illegal immigrants in this country, and it's partially because not only will Republicans fight him on that, but States that border Mexico will also fight hard against certain immigrant policies he might like to enact.

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We're now looking at a complete political 180 from most of Europe.

 

The proposed German law would provide food and a ticket to return to the first European Union country the asylum seeker entered, instead of housing and cash benefits. That could mean far fewer people would win protection in Germany or elsewhere in Europe, since countries such as Hungary are generally declining to award refugee status.

In addition, asylum seekers deemed to be withholding vital information — such as their passports or proof of their country of origin — would be denied benefits. Asylum seekers also would need to remain in crowded reception centers for six months, rather than three, before earning the right to subsidized housing.

 

Those who failed to comply with orders to leave Germany could be subject to forced removal without advance notice.

So far the E.U. has agreed to accept and settle only 40,000 asylum seekers across 22 member nations. Plans for another 120,000 have been bitterly opposed by central and eastern European nations.

On Thursday, one of the officials who helped spark the onslaught resigned. Germany’s top migration official, Manfred Schmidt, stepped down for “personal reasons” less than a month after his agency posted a message on Twitter that had far-reaching consequences.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/croatia-is-the-new-frontline-in-europes-refugee-crisis/2015/09/17/3723efc0-5c93-11e5-8475-781cc9851652_story.html

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I'm starting to wonder how this will directly affect some of my family over there.

 

Found out they have designated two homes in the small town where one of my aunts lives (and a few other extended family members) as refugee housing.

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source - http://www.dw.com/en/german-government-denies-reports-of-15-million-refugee-estimates/a-18762443

 

 

The tabloid "Bild" newspaper threw a grenade into Germany's migration debate on Monday morning by releasing a new figure on the number of refugees the government is expecting in the current year.

According to a "secret" government document - the paper did not elaborate on the exact authority or department that had leaked it - some 1.5 million people are now going to seek asylum in Germany this year. Not only that, as many as 920,000 of these are expected to arrive before the year's end.
....

At Monday's regular government press conference, government spokesman Georg Streiter denied all knowledge of the document the tabloid had got hold of. Nor, he said, did he know of any member of the government who knew to what document the newspaper might have been referring. "No one knows this paper," Streiter told reporters. "For that reason I wouldn't put too much credence in it."
....

 

Scare tactic to up the anxiety and rhetoric or plausible deniability at its best? Hmmmmm. Who to believe.....

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Wish I had a better source but I imagine others will pick this up.

 

source - http://www.updateschannel.com/germany-to-deport-thousands-of-immigrants/

 

 

People always travel and migrate to a new place to get a better opportunity or job. But in case of People seeking asylum in Germany it will not be the case. As earlier reported Germany will be rejecting thousands of applications from Balkans, a politically stable country, in the asylum scenario as Berlin Government rises and tougher there standards against economic migrants after the fluctuating economy of the country.

 

Germany-to-send-updates-channel.jpg?resi

 

“I expect that in the next weeks, the number of repatriations, voluntary returns and deportations will rise significantly,” de Maiziere said.

The Federal Office for Migration and Refugees has been tasked with dealing with “many unresolved asylum applications” before Christmas, said the minister, adding “that means that tens of thousands of rejected asylum seekers from the Balkans would have to leave our country”.

 

Up till now as reports show the German Authorities have so far expelled about 11,000 people from their country. Germany also released a public statement for the applicants to voluntarily leave the country with some financial aid which about 27,000 people accepted and left the country peacefully.

 

Again this year Germany is expecting to welcome and shelter about 1 million immigrants from war suffered countries like Syria and Iraq, but many of them will also come from good countries like Balkans.

 

In past few days Germany also added Albania, kosovo and Montenegro to the safe origin countries which clearly means that people from these regions will not be the ideal members for political asylum.

 

According to official data, Germany received 577,307 asylum seekers from January to September. Of these, 66,311 were Albanian and another 32,258 were Kosovan.

 

Won't exactly stem the flow but maybe it will cut down on it a bit if they actually enforce it and word gets out. The next question is how they handle the many who just say they lost all their documentation in the war.

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