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Malaphax

AMD Ryzen 3 (Matisse)

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Some Anandtech articles from AMD's keynote at CES. 
Note that I think these numbers currently look ridiculous but I hope AMD continues to push performance. 

Radeon VII - $700 - available February 7
Supposedly performs at RTX 2080 levels.  Also keep in mind AMD has had slightly more success with DX12 and Vulkan performance, compared to Nvidia seeing an 18% drop in performance from DX11 to DX12. 
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13832/amd-radeon-vii-high-end-7nm-february-7th-for-699

Ryzen 3000 series - available "mid 2019"
Supposedly their top end will be AT LEAST on parity with a 9900k (multithreaded performance) and AT LEAST 15% performance jump over the 2700X
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13829/amd-ryzen-3rd-generation-zen-2-pcie-4-eight-core

The scary part about the ryzen 3000 series is that they've only announced an 8 core CPU.  Rumors about a supposed 16c/32t monster might still be held back until mid 2019.  I'm predicting somewhere around May for their major announcements and launches right around that time (AMD's 50th anniversary is May 1, 2019). 

I want to see proper benchmarks for all this before I get too hyped.  I'm also surprised they're launching the 7nm GPUs before the CPUs considering their previous release cadence on CPUs.  The only reason for this I can come up with is their transition to a new production method, they've split the manufacturing between TSMC and Global Foundaries and that might have added some complexity along with some increased logistics. 

Also buried in this announcement was PCI-E 4.0 which I doubt will be a major deal right now, but next generation of CPU and GPU might see increased benefits from the additional bandwidth. 

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I figure we might as well dedicate a whole thread to this so I split it off.

  1. The CPU stuff. Even if we get 10% performance increase (over current 2xxx) in most benchmarks for about the same price (anticipating the quick price drop shortly after launch premium) that still makes these CPUs worthwhile because the current Zen models are already worthwhile. I'm keeping my expectations reasonable but I still think this gen will be a good option. Of course the predictions/marketing make it sound amazing which I won't put any stock into until I see the numbers.
  2. The GPU stuff. Even if everything they said at the presentation is true, Radeon VII brings absolutely nothing to the table. Matching a RTX2080 for $700 with no new features over last gen? You can get a 2080 on sale for that right now and at least kind of lie to yourself that you are getting something new (GIGARAYS) to use. I feel like Radeon VII is more about proving to the world that they can at least play in the same ballpark. I hope no one has forgotten that when it came to power and efficiency, AMD's last gen GPU (current gen I guess) sucked.

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The CPU stuff is a little wild but believable.  I'm curious about the single core performance, but I'm keeping my expectations low.  I also expect the 2700 to see a big price drop around launch and might be worthwhile for more bargain oriented people. 

The Radeon 7 gets a bit weird.  They clearly price matched their competition, I think they came to the realization that if they can decently compete they should price match and make bigger profit margins on their products.  AMD has always been very selective in how they compete and generally go for a more "value" oriented strategy but it looks like they have something that mostly competes near the top of Nvidia's offering so they have no reason to play hardball on pricing.  As far as direct competition with the 2080, yea they don't have gigarays but if you look at real world performance in bf5 (STILL THE ONLY GAME WITH RAYTRACING) you basically can't use the RTX features on a 2080 unless you're gaming at 1080p, which seems unlikely given it's a $700 GPU.  Power efficiency will be an interesting element, because their 7nm CPUs seem to be very power efficient so let's see how much this affects AMD on the GPU side. 

Glad to see AMD has been crushing it the last couple years, I wish them well and hope the increased competition benefits consumers. 

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16 minutes ago, Malaphax said:

I also expect the 2700 to see a big price drop around launch and might be worthwhile for more bargain oriented people.

I don't think we will see much of a price drop. They are already competing on value right now and everything had a drop from it's launch prices (see below). I imagine a scenario like the Nvidia RTX series where they are just bring in a new, higher performance tier above what exists today. 2700x is already regularly found on sale under $300.

Quote

$499 - Ryzen 7 1800X
$399 - Ryzen 7 1700X
$329 - Ryzen 7 1700

$329 - Ryzen 7 2700X
$299 - Ryzen 7 2700
$229 - Ryzen 5 2600X
$199 - Ryzen 5 2600

I could see how 3xxx launching at prices like first gen zen. Would mostly fit with current prices.

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As expected I felt I made a mistake by waiting for Zen. I'm unlikely to see $484 i9 9900k + $30 mobo discount, and $600 RTX 2080 for months. Oh well....in the mean time I'll just deal with the constant stuttering in my games i'm usually running CPU/GPU intensive tasks while playing my games. I really need a second GPU to dedicate individual games to.

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https://wccftech.com/amd-ryzen-3000-cpus-x570-motherboards-and-radeon-navi-gpus-7nm-launch-rumor/

New rumors are pushing back the 3000 series launch date to July 7.

Slight possibility that some of the issues TSMC ran into last month with substandard chemicals wiping out a big batch of wafers.  Or it could just be AMD fighting for 7nm production capacity with big boys like Apple and Qualcomm. 

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Since this thread got bumped back up I am re-reading it. I also went and re-read the monster Xeon W-3175X review ( https://www.anandtech.com/show/13748/the-intel-xeon-w-3175x-review-28-unlocked-cores-2999-usd/ ).

On 1/9/2019 at 4:38 PM, Jedi2155 said:

As expected I felt I made a mistake by waiting for Zen.

How did do you come of this conclusion? In a variety of tests, the 2700x is close to the 9900k while being consistently $200 cheaper. The poor value is is likely why Linus did not recommend the 9900k in any of the different builds in the video you posted in the other thread. I think this situation is unlikely to change with Zen3 (although the price gap will probably shrink some).

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On 2/18/2019 at 2:48 PM, kuhla said:

Since this thread got bumped back up I am re-reading it. I also went and re-read the monster Xeon W-3175X review ( https://www.anandtech.com/show/13748/the-intel-xeon-w-3175x-review-28-unlocked-cores-2999-usd/ ).

How did do you come of this conclusion? In a variety of tests, the 2700x is close to the 9900k while being consistently $200 cheaper. The poor value is is likely why Linus did not recommend the 9900k in any of the different builds in the video you posted in the other thread.

 

Right now, I constantly feel the slowness of my machine (been borrowing a buddy's Xeon E3-1276 v3) and something felt off compared to my old 4.4-4.6 GHz 4790k. I could be enjoying the latest and greatest with very little additional investment (relative). Compare the cost of a RTX 2080 Ti, to a i9 9900k vs. 9700k. 

In regards to the 2700x vs. 9900k, close to is not better (I also wouldn't call 15% "close" personally).  In many performance metrics, the 2700X is on-par with my old 4 year old i7 4790k (look at SC int/float performance). Now you may argue why care about single threaded performance? Because the applications I use are still single threaded, I'd just be running multiple different single threaded applications. As such clockspeed and IPC count still matter a great deal compared to a multi-threaded workload. Additionally, up until threads reach the core limit, performance will be identical if not better on the 4790k. Now a i9-9900k is 25% better on the single thread performance than the 2700X, but has parity on core count. So yes, while 15% performance for 100% higher price doesn't make sense if you're budget conscious (which is why the 2700X is a great chip for the masses), my budget allows me to go a bit beyond that.

Outside of PCMark and Anand's old SSD destroyer tests, I don't know any benchmarks that attempt to measure the type of workloads I typically stressed on my PC (how many people run flash video, and 2-10 different game clients simultaneously?). Considering the fact that I can feel 10% clock-speed difference on my daily work loads, I'm of the opinion, that the 2700X would have never met my performance criteria. 

Quote

I think this situation is unlikely to change with Zen3 (although the price gap will probably shrink some).

This is why I think it was a mistake for me to wait for Zen 3, when I could've had a 9900k back in December for $483.

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More rumors about Ryzen 3000 series. 

https://wccftech.com/amd-ryzen-3000-cpu-specs-prices-online-retailer-ryzen-9-3850x-leak/

image.png

Note that the 3850 is the odd man out mostly due to AMD's 50th anniversary, it occupies a similar spot as the Intel 8086k which was just a binned/overclocked version 8700k. 

This also raises a bit of a question regarding what the HEDT space will look like.  I mean threadripper was already silly but only the 2990WX (32c/64t) and 2970WX (24c/48t) are actually higher core/thread counts than the next gen top end AM4 CPUs.  That's wild to think about. 

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Looks like the main boost is core frequency which is an important trait. Not sure if they're bringing any IPC improvements, but comparing against a 2700X (3.7 base, 4.3 boost), the 3700X is has an admiral 16% boost in clock (4.2 base, 5.0 Boost). The R9 3850X also looks extremely competitive with 16 cores at 4.3 GHz base compared to 8 cores at 3.6 GHz base for a i9-9900k.

 

That means that even if half the cores are loaded running at base clocks (which is unlikely on the 3850X) you're looking at a 20% clock speed advantage over the 9900k. This is a real answer. The reason I'm looking at clocks is because the primary advantage from Intel so far was that despite AMD getting similar IPC performance, they were still falling behind on the clock speed. This brings them to parity while offering double the cores. 

Based on these "suspected" numbers I think a Zen 3 makes sense in my future.

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On 3/4/2019 at 11:54 AM, kuhla said:

Those numbers are too good to be true. I don't believe them.

You are likely right. I just heard release date is still aimed for summer launch which means releasing these details 3 months ahead is way too early for a retailer to have such information so its likely fake...Toms actually did a decent writeup near the end.

aHR0cDovL21lZGlhLmJlc3RvZm1pY3JvLmNvbS9S

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Ryzen 2xxx series getting serious price cuts ($50 off 2700, from $300 to $250).

https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-seemingly-slashes-prices-for-Zen-performance-Ryzen-7-CPUs-ahead-of-Zen-2-launch.415002.0.html


I suspect Ryzen 3000 series to be a serious performance increase from all the hints I've heard. Best part for the early adopters though is board compatibility so you can still use your old ecosystem with simply a chip swap.

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20 hours ago, Jedi2155 said:

Best part for the early adopters though is board compatibility so you can still use your old ecosystem with simply a chip swap.

They said publicly that they would support AM4 platform for 4 years and that was a major selling point to me. I hope they do.

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The AM4 chipset will last through Ryzen 3000 and probably 4000 but I suspect that they'll swap after that.  While it's really nice that early adopters can simply CPU swap for more cores/performance I suspect that each iteration of new chipsets contain some decent features all on their own.  Some early boards went through several bios/firmware updates and many reviewers pointed out that these initial boards/chipsets were a bit rough around the edges compared to Intel.  I believe the bump from the initial x370/b350 boards to the newer x470/b450 boards was rather substantial in terms of stability and feature-set.  While I doubt we'll see a markedly large improvement when they launch the x570/b550 but I still expect there to be some new features and fine tuning. 
I'd probably still recommend doing a full CPU/Mobo swap to any early adopters, but it's nice to have the option at all. 

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1 hour ago, Malaphax said:

Some early boards went through several bios/firmware updates and.....

Yeah I went through one round of that already. I may do another round in the near future since they have steadily released new BIOSs every 3-4 months for my x370 board. I guess I could wait for whatever round of updates come out when the 3000 series drops but then again incremental updates may help me avoid one giant one later....

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https://www.anandtech.com/show/14407/amd-ryzen-3000-announced-five-cpus-12-cores-for-499-up-to-46-ghz-pcie-40-coming-77

3900x is 12c24t for $499.  Many people are wondering what happned to the 16c32t.  I'm curious if they have the capacity but they wanted to keep the HEDT segment separate. 

Supposedly it's a 13% IPC bump, but I'll wait for more complete benchmarks.  Either way looks good.  Hopefully we'll see launch on 7/7, which is a bit sooner than the predicted August launch dates.   

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The floodgates are open.  Here's a review megathread from reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/c9ncvh/3rd_generation_ryzen_reviews_megathread/

Overall consensus is that the 9900K still just barely beats the 3900X and 3700X on some gaming benchmarks, but it gets stomped in nearly every other category.  Also there were some new updates in windows 1903 which should help out AMD by putting more processes on the same physical chiplets, but at least in the Linus Tech Tips video he mentioned there were some issues in battlefield that they ran into with the processes being split over different chiplets. 

The only downside is that there are no motherboard reviews currently out, and availability seems to be absolute shit.  Every microcenter had massive lines (see the AMD subreddit and the billion pictures of that) and it looks like nearly every retailer and online store is sold out. 

Motherboard prices are certainly higher than previous generations but aside from the top end boards being $600+ most of the 2nd and 3rd SKUs seem to drop of quickly into the $350 or below range. 

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Interesting weirdness going on with x570 boards.

  • Anandtech had issues with core boosts not behaving properly and had to re-run some of their testing after getting updated motherboard firmware.  Sadly this seems to be a recurring issue that anandtech reviews are running into problems when benchmarking.  I can't tell if Anandtech is just thorough enough to go back and fix errors or if they're sloppy enough that errors like this are creeping in. 
    See more data at the bottom of this page: https://www.anandtech.com/show/14605/the-and-ryzen-3700x-3900x-review-raising-the-bar/5
  • At least one reviewer has managed to kill a 3900x trying to overclock, most reviews are saying 4.3Ghz across all cores is the current max.  I've also seen posts about how the max safe voltage is 1.325V - for comparison 2000 series is 1.375V
  • DerBauer did some testing on the x570 chipset and tried to figure out why we need active coolers on every motherboard.  Short answer is... we don't.  Longer answer is... even though there's a major power jump of 5W from x470 chipset to x570 under heavy load there's still not even wattage to warrant active cooling.  He specifically mentions that a $2 cheap ass heatsink from ebay with zero airflow never hit more than 74c even at full load. 
    As a side note - remember the x570 chipset is made by AMD directly, not Asmedia.  Either there were some miraculous changes in how the x570 chipset handles power consumption compared to computex and pre-release boards or everyone just panicked and went hog wild with crazy cooling solutions.  On the bright side this should mean that the chipset fans aren't a crucial component and probably can be disabled without issue.  Note most of the reviewers have said the fans are fairly quiet. 
    Here's a pretty picture - and here's the link to the full video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk3PD-4zPN0
    wwiueaedo3931.jpg

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source - https://mobile.twitter.com/hardwarecanucks/status/1148407188693688325?p=v

Quote

PSA for X570 / RX 5700 buyers! PCIe riser cables / vertical GPU mounts cause the RX 5700 series to remain in 2D mode even when in games. ONLY affects X570. This is due to Gen4 signalling requirements not being met by current cables.

A part of me was always worried that something like this would happen eventually with riser cables.

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Checked the support page for my current motherboard and I see a new bios was released on July 5th and in the changelog it says "Supports AMD next generation Ryzen processors" so I go over to the supported CPU list and it now lists a bunch of the new 3000 series CPUs. Beautiful. This is why I bought AM4. AMD is delivering on their promise of support. Here I am right about 2 years into owning this motherboard and I will still have new CPUs available for it for years to come.

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Yea the only downside I've heard is that some motherboard manufacturers had to cut certain features and some even older processor compatability to get the new 3000 series to work on x370.  In general the features that got cut were very minor but they did run into limits on their original bios designs.  It's still impressive that there is support on x370, and I hope that AMD takes a similar long lived approach when they eventually migrate to AM5 or whatever next socket they choose - for users it really does provide a substantially better experience over Intel's constant "fuck you, we changed 2 pins, go buy a new mobo."

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9 minutes ago, Malaphax said:

Yea the only downside I've heard is that some motherboard manufacturers had to cut certain features and some even older processor compatability to get the new 3000 series to work on x370.  In general the features that got cut were very minor but they did run into limits on their original bios designs. 

Definitely. I don't know them off the top of my head but I know there were already features in the 2xxx series which were just flat out not going to work on x370 boards, no matter how many BIOS updates are made, so I expect it's a very similar story for 3xxx.

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